AllSaintsReformed (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Thank you for your response. I understand the concept behind what you are trying to convey; namely, that people "ought" to use the laws of logic and reason in order to come to cogent conclusions. And, though you disagree, there are countless of brilliant Christian thinkers (though you may think that is an oxymoron) who have done precisely that and come to opposite conclusions to yours. I guess we have to agree to disagree, don't you think?

Atheistjeremy (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

The phrase "think for yourself" doesn't mean that you should believe anything you want. Children should be taught to think LOGICALLY for themselves. We should use REASON when making decisions. People should be taught how to think, not what to think. Do we stand upon the shoulders of giants? Yes. But independent, free-thinking minds progress humanity. Sometimes the social outcasts, the brilliant minds that are misunderstood and under-appreicated during their time, make a big difference.

vht11 (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

The phrase "People should think for themselves" has become so cliche. What does it even mean nowadays? If you think it means to think independently of anything anyone has ever said, than it is philosophically impossible for any worldview we hold to has been held by its champions and proponents of ages past. In the end, we all "follow" what someone has said in the past. Right?

Atheistjeremy (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Your "absurd" questions (the 2nd and 3rd) really had nothing to do with the origninal issue: that Christianity (and all religions that I know of) require ignorance of its followers. Its a necessity when you want people to believe false claims supported by zero evidence. You're just evading the issue. I said that Christians are described as sheep and a flock and I supported my claim. People shouldn't follow dogma. They should THINK critically for themselves.

vht11 (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

I don't see how my question about epistemology is "absurd" seeing as how hundreds of renowned philosophers, with both theistic and atheistic inclinations, have wrestled with the same question for ages. Maybe you know something that they didn't and would like to be added to the annals of the history of philosophy along with the Augustines and Nietzsches of this world. I don't understand why you are coming across like this. It's my fault. I assumed you were capable of amicable & cogent reasoning.

Atheistjeremy (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

You've never heard of the relationship between God/Jesus and his followers described as the shepherd and flock? "Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture." (Psalm 100:3) There are many others. As far as your absurd question regarding how we gain knowledge, we use our five senses. We use common sense, logic, observation and science. We use our BRAINS. How else would you do it?

AllSaintsReformed (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

1. I must've missed something in my reading. Would you mind directing me to specific biblical texts that state we are ordered to be like little children and sheep? 2. I am interested in finding out how anything can be known. What methods can we use to come to the truth? 3. I am interested in finding out what worldview out there makes sense out of reality, ethics, logic, etc. Thanks.

Atheistjeremy (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

"I've yet to come across being "ordered to be like little children and sheep" or to "be naive and destroy [my] reason." You must be among the majority of Xians who don't read the bible. "Maybe you are aware of some inside information I have not been privy to" Yeah, I've read the bible. "how is belief evidenced in your opinion?" I have no idea what you mean here. What "worldview" are you talking about?

vht11 (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

This is in response to Jeremygury: I have been a Christian for some years now and I've yet to come across being "ordered to be like little children and sheep" or to "be naive and destroy [my] reason." Maybe you are aware of some inside information I have not been privy to, would you mind sharing that with me and clarifying your assertion? As far as your last assertion, how is belief evidenced in your opinion? In your view, which worldview makes human experience intelligible?

vht11 (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

I have been a Christian for some years now and I've yet to come across being "ordered to be like little children and sheep" or to "be naive and destroy [my] reason." Maybe you are aware of some inside information I have not been privy to, would you mind sharing that with me and clarifying your assertion? As far as your last assertion, how is belief evidenced in your opinion? In your view, which worldview makes human experience intelligible?